One day when he had called at the office of Charles Wilson to get an insurance policy Patrick McBryan was present.
"Reverend Benton, are you acquainted with Mr. McBryan?" Wilson asked as the minister entered.
"Yes, I know Mr. McBryan. How are you?"
"Very well, Reverend. How are you and the Ku Kluxers?" McBryan asked.
"I am all right and the Klan is getting along fine."
"If you have no objections I'd like to ask you a few questions about this organization."
"None whatever, unless you want to know who the members are. I don't object to telling you that I am a member but farther than that I cannot reveal the membership roll."
"I'd like to know if you think that it is American for the Klan to fight other churches?"
"The Klan does not fight any church nor does it persecute anyone for their religious opinions. Quite the contrary. Members of the Klan are obligated to uphold the Constitution of the United States, not part of the Constitution, but every article and clause. As you know, one of the fundamental principles of Americanism is religious toleration. The first amendment to the Constitution provides that Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The last clause of the sixth article of the Constitution provides that no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. The members of the Klan are obligated to support the Constitution of the United States and believe in the principle of religious toleration. If any person or any group should interfere with the Catholics of Wilford Springs meeting in their cathedral to worship God as they please the Klan would be the first to protest against such action."
"You have stated that the Constitution provides that no religious test shall be required for office holding, but the Klan is everywhere opposing Catholics who are candidates and doing all it can to keep them out of office, and yet you say that the Klan supports the Constitution."
The minister smiled. He was amused at the absurd statement of the Irish politician.
"I am afraid," he said, "that you wouldn't have made much of a lawyer. The Constitution says that no religious test shall be required for office holding. That certainly does not mean that one may not vote against a man because of a religious opinion if he so desires. If Congress were to pass a law requiring all office holders to be Baptists, that would be a religious test for office holding."
Wilson, who was a Baptist, reached over and slapped the minister on the leg and laughingly said, "That would be fine."
"Why do you not permit Catholics to join the Klan?"
"I might ask you why the Knights of Columbus do not permit Protestants to join that organization."
"If you did, the answer would be easy. I would tell you that the Knights of Columbus is a Catholic organization," declared McBryan.
"I can frankly say that the Ku Klux Klan is a Protestant organization—but to give you a little more definite information, I will inform you that in order to become a member of the Klan the applicant must be able to declare allegiance to the United States, which many good Catholics can do, and disown any allegiance to any foreign government, prince or potentate, civil or ecclesiastical, which no Catholic can do."
"Do you mean to say that Catholics are not patriotic?" shouted McBryan, springing to his feet.
"Sit down, Mac, and take it easy," said Wilson. "You remember you are just having a friendly discussion, and the preacher is only answering your questions." McBryan resumed his seat.
Reverend Benton continued to speak with the greatest self-control. "I do not say anything of the kind. Many of them have demonstrated that they are patriotic and good citizens, but the fact remains that as Roman Catholics they owe allegiance to the Pope of Rome. Isn't that true?"
"Yes, he is the head of the Roman Catholic Church."
"Do you not believe that it would be better to have your church organization complete in this country and have no foreign allegiance?"
"I would think so if the pope were an ordinary man."
"Mr. McBryan, will you please explain to me in what sense the pope is not an ordinary man?"
"The pope is the vicar of Christ, and as such is infallible."
"How did the pope get to be vicar of Christ?"
"He is the lawful successor of St. Peter."
"I deny that St. Peter was a pope. He never claimed to have any authority of an ecclesiastical nature not possessed by the other apostles. The other apostles did not recognize any such authority vested in him. Paul, in referring to a disagreement with him, said, 'I withstood him to his face.' If there were any power vested in him that was not shared by the other apostles the Bible makes no provision for a successor."
"That's the way you Protestants interpret the Bible, but you are fallible and we have an infallible interpreter."
"If we were to grant for the sake of argument that the pope is the successor of Peter, what makes him infallible?"
"Why, I suppose that God makes him infallible just as he made St. Peter infallible."
"Cardinal Gibbons says that the pope, as successor of St. Peter, by virtue of the promises of Jesus Christ, is preserved from error of judgment when he renders decisions on faith and morals," the minister quoted.
"Isn't the cardinal right?"
"On page 117 of 'The Faith of Our Fathers,' Cardinal Gibbons says, 'The infallibility of the popes does not signify that they are inspired. The apostles were endowed with the gift of inspiration, and we accept their writings as the revered Word of God. No Catholic, on the contrary, claims that the pope is inspired or endowed with Divine revelation properly so called.' Now if they are not inspired I would like to know just how they are infallible in judgment. The experience of humanity goes to show that the human mind is fallible and prone to error and that the election to an office, be it political or ecclesiastical, does not change the nature of his judgments."
"I can't explain it but I believe it." McBryan spoke with positiveness.
"All Roman Catholics believe that the pope is infallible, don't they, McBryan?" asked Wilson.
"Sure they do. They wouldn't be Catholics unless they did."
"For my part," said the minister, "I do not see how any fair-minded man can have any faith in the infallibility of the pope or think that he is the lawful successor of Peter when he considers the history of the popes, especially when he considers their morals and decisions. I never could understand how men could believe this doctrine when one infallible pope reverses the decision of a predecessor who was also infallible."
"You spoke of their morals. What did you mean by that?" Wilson asked.
"I meant that when we consider the immoral acts of some of these men who claimed to be the vicar of Christ, that is, His personal representative on earth, any man whose mind was not stultified by prejudice and superstition would rebel against the doctrine of the pope's being the vicar of Christ."
"Just what immorality do you refer to?" McBryan asked.
"Constantine (also known as St. Paul I) was one of the popes. Stephen IV was elected to supplant him. Stephen put out the eyes of Constantine. This pope also amputated the tongue of the Bishop Theodorus. Formosus, who had been excommunicated as a conspirator for the murder of Pope John, was elected pope in 891. Stephen VII had the dead body of Formosus taken from the grave, clothed in papal habiliments, propped up in a chair and tried before a council. The corpse was found guilty, three fingers were cut off and the body cast into the Tiber. In——"
McBryan jumped to his feet, his face livid with anger. "Them's lies," he shouted, "damnable Protestant lies."
"Sit down, McBryan, and keep still until the Reverend is through and then you can have your say. One speaker at a time, you know, and Reverend Benton has the floor." Wilson rapped on the table and spoke with the authoritative voice of a judge.
"Very well, go on," said McBryan as he took his seat.
The minister, unperturbed, continued: "In less than two months after Leo V became pope he was cast into prison by Christopher, one of his chaplains. This Christopher usurped his place and was afterwards expelled from Rome by Sergius III, who became pope. This pope lived in criminal intercourse with the celebrated Theodora. The love of Theodora was shared by John X. Through her influence John X was made archbishop and later pope.
"John XII was only nineteen years of age when he became pope. His reign was characterized by the most shocking immoralities. He was given to drunkenness and gambling; he put out the eyes of one ecclesiastic and maimed another. He was charged with incest and many adulteries. He was at last deposed, and Leo VII was elected in his stead. Subsequently John XII got the upper hand and maimed and mutilated his antagonists. His life was finally brought to an end by a man whose wife he had seduced. Boniface VII imprisoned Benedict VII and starved him to death.
"Benedict IX, a boy of less than twelve years, was raised to the apostolic throne. One of his successors, Victor III, declared that the life of Benedict was so shameful, so foul, so execrable, that he shuddered to describe it. The people, unable longer to bear his adulteries, homicides and abominations, rose against him, and in despair of maintaining his position, he put up the papacy at auction and it was bought by a presbyter named John, who became Gregory the VI. These are but a part of the crimes and irregularities of which some of the popes were guilty."
"I don't believe all that. I never heard of it before. Where's your proof?" demanded McBryan.
"My dear sir, these things are a matter of history. Everything I have said of these popes and much more is recorded in Draper's 'History of the Intellectual Development of Europe' and can be substantiated by other historians."
"Aren't there a lot of Protestant ministers who are guilty of immorality?" McBryan asked.
"There are some Protestant ministers who are guilty of immorality, but when it is discovered that a Protestant minister has gone wrong he is expelled from the ministry. A big difference between the relation of a Protestant minister and his congregation and the pope and the Catholic church is that Protestants do not hold their ministers or any ecclesiastic to be infallible, while the Catholics do hold the pope to be infallible. I do not doubt that many of the popes were good men, and I do not claim that because some of them were bad that all of them are to be condemned, but the point I am making is that one must be very credulous to believe that Christ would recognize as His direct representatives men who had committed such gross immoralities and outraged every human right—men who were among the greatest reprobates and degenerates the world has ever produced. I cannot understand how men who are not controlled by superstitious fear can believe that these men were the successors of St. Peter and that through them Christ passed down the office of pontiff, including all of the prerogatives of his vicarage, to the present incumbent."
"I believe He did," said McBryan.
"I suppose you believe that Christ authorized the sale of the papacy at auction by Benedict IX. Well, I don't believe it."
"It don't make any difference to Catholics what damn Protestants think of their pope."
"Mr. McBryan, I have no objections to your believing in the infallibility of the popes if you want to. The Klan does not object to any religious belief. It stands for the worship of God according to the dictates of conscience, and will protect Catholics as well as Protestants in such worship. What the Klan does oppose, and what every American should oppose, is the exercise of civil power by the Church. Whenever any church, Catholic or Protestant, attempts to gain control of the affairs of state they will find solid opposition from the Klan. One of the principles of this organization is the separation of church and state."
"I would oppose even the Baptist church's doing that," said Wilson.
"Catholics don't believe in the church controlling the state," said McBryan.
"I hope not, but the history of the Catholic church is largely the history of a church directly controlling, or dominating, civil powers; and when such powers have been wrested from it, struggling to regain them.
"The time was when the Catholic church controlled the political affairs of all Europe. In 754 Pippin, king of the Franks, recognized the temporal authority of the pope. In 774 Charlemagne confirmed this power and enlarged the dominion of the pope. For many years contentions between the church and the rulers of Europe were common. France, under Philip the Fair, was the first power to successfully resist papal authority. The rise of Protestantism under Luther caused the pope to lose fully one-half of Europe. This power was never regained. After the treaty of Westphalia in 1648 conditions were brought about that made a rapid decline of the pope's temporal power.
"Napoleon III was forced to withdraw the French troops from Italy during the Franco-German war, Victor Emmanuel took advantage of this circumstance and on September 20, 1870, entered Rome and took possession of the palace. The pope was stripped of all direct temporal power. His influence in church matters was in no wise interfered with. Since then he has exercised much indirect political power."
"I am not in favor of the pope's exercising temporal power, and Catholics as a whole are not in favor of it. You see we only believe in the infallibility of the pope in religious matters," said McBryan.
"Well, if it is true that the Roman Catholics are not in favor of the pope's exercising temporal power certainly they should not object to the Klan's insisting on the continued separation of church and state. And while there may be some Catholics like yourself who would oppose the re-establishment of the direct temporal control of the pope, there are many who would welcome it and assist in bringing it about."
"You are mistaken. You see that we don't believe in the pope's infallibility in political affairs."
"While it is true that your church teaches that the pope is infallible only in spiritual matters, yet Catholics believe in his right and ability to rule in temporal affairs."
"How do you know they do?"
"Cardinal Manning, in his debate with Robert Ingersoll, declared, 'The greatest statesmen and rulers that the world has ever seen are the popes of Rome.' Cardinal Gibbons, in his book, 'The Faith of Our Fathers,' in the chapter headed 'Temporal Power of the Popes,' says:
"'The Papacy,' they say, 'is gone. Its glory vanished. Its sun is set. It is sunk below the horizon never to rise again.' Illboding prophet, will you never profit by the lessons of history? Have not numbers of popes before Pius IX been forcibly ejected from their See, and have they not been reinstated in their temporal authority? What has happened so often before may and will happen again.
"For our part we have every confidence that ere long the clouds which now overshadow the civil throne of the pope will be removed by the breath of a righteous God, and that his temporal power will be re-established on a more permanent basis than ever."
"Well, I guess everybody has a right to his own opinion," said McBryan.
"Yes, freedom of speech and freedom of the press is another of the Klan principles," replied Reverend Benton, as he rose from his chair. "If you will give me my insurance policy, Mr. Wilson, I will go."
"The premium is nine dollars and forty cents," Wilson stated, as he handed the policy to the minister.
"Will it be all right to let that go until the first of the month? I am short of funds now."
"Yes, that's all right, but I didn't know that preachers ever got short," remarked the real estate and insurance agent, laughing.
When Reverend Benton had gone out Wilson turned to McBryan. "I will appreciate it if you will give Harold King a chance at the city building, he is a fine fellow."
"He has already spoken to us, and we have asked him to submit a perspective drawing. There are several other applicants."
"He's a fine young fellow and a home man, and I'd like very much to see him get it."
"He'll be given careful consideration," McBryan replied. "Other things being equal, I would prefer to hire a home man."